No such thing as duct tape fix for benzo abuse

[EasyDoesit]

It seems people do not understand the affects of how difficult and I mean difficult to find benzowise Dr.'s. Please please read these threads written by Doctors.


http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/10/ther...ithdrawal/


https://benzowithdrawalhelp.com

Knowledge is power.

EasyDoesit

[Caróg liath]

It's a good commentary on why long term, chronic use of benzos is not a good thing.

It's best to 'take a break' and see how you do without them (if you can, not everyone can medically speaking, for example Bi-polar's need Klonopin for manic episodes although not all BP's are of the same variety).

The first article does not mention WHAT benzo she was on, or the amount she was taking.

The second article mentions clonazepam, but not the amount.

I would be most curious to learn what the amounts were.

A small (5 - 10 mg a day) long-term dose, is not hellish to get off of. Amounts in excess of 5-10 mg a day for over 4-6 months (or longer), definitely is (ESPECIALLY if it is a benzo with a short half-life), and therefore a careful, monitored and supported taper is necessary (including dietary changes, epsom salt baths, walks and a lot of rest).

I am only speaking with the experience of helping patients get off of LARGE amounts of benzos, especially those in the 'short elimination half life' category.

Withdrawal symptoms tend to occur earlier with benzodiazepines with short elimination half-lives, than those with long elimination half-lives.

Common symptoms of benzodiazepine withdrawal include anxiety, trouble sleeping, restlessness, muscle tension, and irritability. Less commonly, patients may also experience nausea, malaise, blurred vision, sweating, nightmares, depression, muscle coordination problems, and muscle twitching or spasms. In rare cases, hallucinations, delusions, seizures, and ringing in the ears may also occur. Risk of withdrawal seizures is higher with high benzodiazepine dose, long treatment duration, and concurrent use of medications that lower the seizure threshold.

Since the first article the writer seems to experience quite severe symptoms of withdrawal, I would suspect she was on quite a large amount of a short-half life benzo, perhaps even in conjunction with an antidepressant.

I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, and I do hope members will read the articles and learn that playing with these medications is not a game they want to be in.

Cheers and best wishes. CL

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EDIT: I meant what amount of Ativan she was on, or if she was on another medication at the time.

My fingers work too quickly.

Thanks again for the very insightful article on benzo abuse.

[stormsandy]

It's a good commentary on why long term, chronic use of benzos is not a good thing.

It's best to 'take a break' and see how you do without them (if you can, not everyone can medically speaking, for example Bi-polar's need Klonopin for manic episodes although not all BP's are of the same variety).

The first article does not mention WHAT benzo she was on, or the amount she was taking.

The second article mentions clonazepam, but not the amount.

I would be most curious to learn what the amounts were.

A small (5 - 10 mg a day) long-term dose, is not hellish to get off of.  Amounts in excess of 5-10 mg a day for over 4-6 months (or longer), definitely is (ESPECIALLY if it is a benzo with a short half-life), and therefore a careful, monitored and supported taper is necessary (including dietary changes, epsom salt baths, walks and a lot of rest).

I am only speaking with the experience of helping patients get off of LARGE amounts of benzos, especially those in the 'short elimination half life' category.

Withdrawal symptoms tend to occur earlier with benzodiazepines with short elimination half-lives, than those with long elimination half-lives.

Common symptoms of benzodiazepine withdrawal include anxiety, trouble sleeping, restlessness, muscle tension, and irritability.  Less commonly, patients may also experience nausea, malaise, blurred vision, sweating, nightmares, depression, muscle coordination problems, and muscle twitching or spasms. In rare cases, hallucinations, delusions, seizures, and ringing in the ears may also occur. Risk of withdrawal seizures is higher with high benzodiazepine dose, long treatment duration, and concurrent use of medications that lower the seizure threshold.

Since the first article the writer seems to experience quite severe symptoms of withdrawal, I would suspect she was on quite a large amount of a short-half life benzo, perhaps even in conjunction with an antidepressant.  

I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, and I do hope members will read the articles and learn that playing with these medications is not a game they want to be in.

Cheers and best wishes.  CL

---

EDIT:   I meant what amount of Ativan she was on, or if she was on another medication at the time.

My fingers work too quickly.

Thanks again for the very insightful article on benzo abuse.

Great post -Thanks so much for sharing.

[EasyDoesit]

It's a good commentary on why long term, chronic use of benzos is not a good thing.

It's best to 'take a break' and see how you do without them (if you can, not everyone can medically speaking, for example Bi-polar's need Klonopin for manic episodes although not all BP's are of the same variety).

The first article does not mention WHAT benzo she was on, or the amount she was taking.

The second article mentions clonazepam, but not the amount.

I would be most curious to learn what the amounts were.

A small (5 - 10 mg a day) long-term dose, is not hellish to get off of.  Amounts in excess of 5-10 mg a day for over 4-6 months (or longer), definitely is (ESPECIALLY if it is a benzo with a short half-life), and therefore a careful, monitored and supported taper is necessary (including dietary changes, epsom salt baths, walks and a lot of rest).

I am only speaking with the experience of helping patients get off of LARGE amounts of benzos, especially those in the 'short elimination half life' category.

Withdrawal symptoms tend to occur earlier with benzodiazepines with short elimination half-lives, than those with long elimination half-lives.

Common symptoms of benzodiazepine withdrawal include anxiety, trouble sleeping, restlessness, muscle tension, and irritability.  Less commonly, patients may also experience nausea, malaise, blurred vision, sweating, nightmares, depression, muscle coordination problems, and muscle twitching or spasms. In rare cases, hallucinations, delusions, seizures, and ringing in the ears may also occur. Risk of withdrawal seizures is higher with high benzodiazepine dose, long treatment duration, and concurrent use of medications that lower the seizure threshold.

Since the first article the writer seems to experience quite severe symptoms of withdrawal, I would suspect she was on quite a large amount of a short-half life benzo, perhaps even in conjunction with an antidepressant.  

I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, and I do hope members will read the articles and learn that playing with these medications is not a game they want to be in.

Cheers and best wishes.  CL

---

EDIT:   I meant what amount of Ativan she was on, or if she was on another medication at the time.

My fingers work too quickly.

Thanks again for the very insightful article on benzo abuse.

Great post -Thanks so much for sharing.

From my experience most published writers, small business owners, and any type of person that helps others heal are not "manic or bipolar" but rather even keeled. The second lady taking kpins for 18 years is quite excessive, but if you read through the PDF you'd be amazed at what some people went through. 

Your so very welcome stormsandy, but it is all published through a 15 year study done by multiple doctors, this is not ground breaking news, it is the facts. 

Carog,

Please understand every person is not the same. The point I am trying to make and what these articles are shedding light on is that there is no such thing as a cookie cutter taper no 2 people are the same. I have seen a person get hallucinations after 2 months and then cold turkey from a 2-3mg a day.  

The first article is written by Melissa Bond who took Ativan for 2 years for pregnancy-related insomnia. (which is one of those short half lives "dangerous ones") all benzos are dangerous, from short acting ones to the diazepam. If one would read Heather Ashton full published study they would see that for some patients it was better to just keep them on the benzo. "in rare cases" Ashton says  "Each schedule of taper needs to be tailored  to individual needs."


She took 6mg of Ativan for over 1 year, and at least 4mg for 2 years. Her first child was diagnosed with down syndrome. it was not until 2nd pregnancy at the age of 38 that she talks of a "Uma Thurman like moment in Pulp Fiction" Here is the article. 
She is a published writer. If you notice most if not all doctors will never prescribe any benzo to someone living in moms garage. 

It is always almost prescribed to people that have CAREERS, MORTGAGES, and adults who have a lot on there plate. It is one of the most over prescribed class of medication in the U.S., and after 3-4 weeks they are no longer affective for the original purposes. It is like a band aid on a gun shot wound. 

http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/09/kill...-crushed/ 

She speaks to the affect that various doctors do not fully understand that benzos are not like kicking heroin here is a quote from her blog:

This will be my world until I get off. 5-10 months is the projected time. Not like heroin. Not like alcohol. You go slow, because if you don’t, you can cause damage to the brain that will not leave things pretty. Cognitive 
disfunction


Short term as in 2-3 weeks? Longer then that please refer to many published studies and hours of real life first hand blogs, that depicts the non-sense of  "take a break" wow take a break cold turkey IMHO is reasonable for the under 1 month. Then again like I said before we are all different, but hallucinations and tremors are the norm, not the exception for most people. 

With me I cold turkey cigarettes without mood swings or cravings. They are disgusting and I was very happy to no longer smell liken an ash tray. I will not get into details on an open thread, but unlike these ladies benzo was a walk in the park. 

Healthy diet, plenty of exercise, clean living, meditation, helping others, and just doing whatever it is that one loves is proven to be healthy as it provides purpose for ones life. 

The second lady is Jennifer Leigh PsyD who took clonazepam for 18 years, and has written a book, coaches and helps others along with, sharing success stories. 


https://benzowithdrawalhelp.com/wp-conte...-rev-2.pdf

Easydoesit,

[Caróg liath]

@EasyDoesIt, I would never have suggested that every person is the same (nor did I). In fact, everyone is different; that is indisputable in my experience.

I was only commenting on the links, which I did read.

A PsyD is not a doctor, so I take that as only personal experience, which is valid, but only to the point of her (and anyone's) own personal journey.

Again, clonazepam has a short half-life and 18 years is a long time; the withdrawals after such a long period of use would be very challenging. I don't judge that, I am merely stating my experience in having an APRN and treating those with mental disorders, anxiety, and the like which can be brought on by many primary causes and easily misdiagnosed

As a point of clarification, I was in no way stating that benzos like Klonopin are only for Bi-polars (it was merely an example of people who DO need it to manage their illness long term).

Best wishes and thank you for your post.

Carry on.

[Popster]

This is a serious subject and posting should be accurate.......anyone using a benzo for 18 years is going to have a rough time weaning.....

Clonazepam has a biological half-life of up to 50 hours making it one of the longest (maybe THE longest) benzos to remain in the body.......imagine taking just two 1 mg tabs a day......the enormous build up over time should concern anyone.

[EasyDoesit]

EasyDoesit, Last night I read the blogs of Melissa Bond.  Thank you for writing about this as I found her journey to be like a good friend of mines whom took almost 2 yrs to get off Xanax via Valium and another year to get her mind and body back in working order again.  Much the same as Melissa writes about.

Benzo's are difficult and take a long time to WD from and regain your life.  My Mother was addicted to Valium after she had a brain aneurysm when I was barely 6 yrs old, but back then they were given out like candy by Dr's as the "new" cure all without understanding the consequences of extended use.  Her Dr tried to abruptly stop them, again not knowing and my Father kept throwing them away as he found them.   I can't count how many ER visits she made, some via ambulance.  She truly became a classic "Dr Shopper" for them.  Back when records didn't exist and it was easy.  Eventually they killed her.  I do mean that as had she not been addicted she would not have died by the time I reached my teen yrs.

Thankfully, it saved me from falling for their addictive properties.  I fought an Ortho who scripted them for my back, but he wasn't going to give me the Flexeril or other stuff I suggested for my back spasms.  Even after I told him why.  I will take a 5mg Valium, it has to be bad, if my back gets too hard for me to deal with.  Yes, they do work great for that, but they still have scared me silly after growing up around them.

Harley,

I am sorry that you lost your mother at such a young age Harley. You are the reason I write long winded post like that one. 

I was prescribed Flexeril one time but never filled the prescription. 

You are welcome and I am glad that you understood the post. 

EasyDoesit

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So sorry, Harley.  About your mom. Very hard at a young age to go through all that.

---

Popster, thank you for pointing that out.  I don't think many doctors understand this.

Exactly popster, and Athena, I do not think most doctors understand that. 

I was not trying to throw shade or disrespect  anyone. No need to beat a dead horse. 

I will have to take the high road on the other post.

[Caróg liath]

Again, clonazepam has a short half-life and 18 years is a long time; the withdrawals after such a long period of use would be very challenging.  I don't judge that, I am merely stating my experience in having an APRN and treating those with mental disorders, anxiety, and the like which can be brought on by many primary causes and easily misdiagnosed

Just wanted to clarify . . . Clonazepam has a long half-life of 30-40 hours.

Not sure where the 30-40 hour half life stats were obtained.  The half-life of clonazepam (18-50 hours)

Clonazepam's half-life is 18 to 50 hours and with prolonged use, your blood level increases daily; that may be where the 30-40 half life was obtained.  It would be considered initially a short half life and with prolonged use, a long half life, but there are severe draw backs to this benzo in particular.

The amount remaining is equal to the initial amount time 0.5 to the exponent of (the time you're interested in like 24 hours divided by the half-life)

Amount in your system after 24 hrs for a half life of 24 hours if you add 1 milligram each day goes like this:

Day 1   1.000
Day 2   1.500
Day 3   1.750
Day 4   1.875
Day 5   1.938
Day 6   1.969
Day 7   1.984
Day 8   1.992
Day 9   1.996
Day 10  1.998

Crude math on Clonazepam specifically calculated that the steady-state dose after a month of use is 3.8x the daily dose. Meaning that if you take 1mg of klonopin a day you end up with an average dose of 3.8mg in your body, and if you take 2mg/day  you end up with 7.7mg in your system.

That written, benzos do serve a very necessary purpose for some people.  I don't judge.  I am NOT speaking of recreational use in any way shape or form.

Chemistry and elimination of this class of drugs is widely misunderstood (that is not a remark on anyone here, just a fact).

I do not consider that this benzo is a long half life drug unless taken for extended periods. 

As illustrated, it builds in the system to the point where once you've become dependent on this class of drugs, your brain chemistry is changed, and even after prolonged abstinence you will not respond to them in the same way that you would have if you hadn't been dependent.

For example, someone who has never been dependent to a benzodiazepine can most likely take 1mg of Xanax once a week for an extended period without any consequences. Someone who has previously been dependent on Xanax or any other class of benzodiazepine is asking for trouble with this.

I won't bemoan this subject any longer.

I do not wish to appear contrary but have studied molecular biology and found this subject most interesting; in particular the  lesser know facts that the medical world does not want the average person to be aware of.

Good health and best wishes to all.  CL

[EasyDoesit]

Again I am sorry for your loss Harley. 

I only ask at what point does one not show compassion for what you have endured, instead they keep hammering away.

EasyDoesit

[Caróg liath]

@Harley, I had no idea you suffered a loss that involved benzos.  I am neither pro nor con on this subject.  I am so sorry for your loss.

In regards to the Benzobuddies site you mentioned, I have no knowledge of them and only sited a scholastic paper (PDF) I wrote in 2007 which was published.  They may have gleaned this information from that paper, not the other way round.

I deeply respect Mayo Clinic, but do not feel that any of the WHO's want to know or convey the truth behind a lot of these drugs; they simply become "pill pushers" themselves citing the 'flavour' of the month for monetary gain (sorry to be so jaded, but my work in this area left me very saddened at the way people were treated)... again, this is only my opinion after working in the medical community, and opting to continue my training by combining more holistic approaches with the (so called) traditional ones.

Again, I am deeply sorry for your loss, whatever it was (I only see that @EasyDoesit mentioned it here without any detail).

And thank you for your opinion.  

Best wishes and take good care.

CL