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Increasing bioavailability of benzo's
#21
The more of Rafterman's posts I read, the more impressed (and intrigued) I become.

Now all I have to do is get over the face that I KNOW  I'm going to pull when I put that crushed-between-two-little-spoons @lp under my tongue and wait for the bitterness to hit.
Perhaps in time, I too will grow to like what it represents, and get the extra benefit from what I know is about to kick in....

Like all bitters do, the @lp bitterness will elicit a reflex release of bile from the gall bladder - so while I'm sucking on it all scrunchy faced, if there is food in my stomach, at least it should assist the digestion of fats.
(Which, unfortunately, does not translate as "will magically dissolve abdominal fat".  Big Grin)
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#22
(01-08-2018, 11:47 AM)Richardg8092 Wrote: The more of Rafterman's posts I read, the more impressed (and intrigued) I become.

Now all I have to do is get over the face that I KNOW  I'm going to pull when I put that crushed-between-two-little-spoons @lp under my tongue and wait for the bitterness to hit.
Perhaps in time, I too will grow to like what it represents, and get the extra benefit from what I know is about to kick in....

Like all bitters do, the @lp bitterness will elicit a reflex release of bile from the gall bladder - so while I'm sucking on it all scrunchy faced, if there is food in my stomach, at least it should assist the digestion of fats.
(Which, unfortunately, does not translate as "will magically dissolve abdominal fat".  Big Grin)

Wow, man. Thanks a lot for that compliment. You are very kind. I hope that you do eventually pick up a conditioned response to the taste because its almost like it feels like the ALP is kicking in immediately. Well, not like it hits you like a train or anything, but it signals the brain that the cavalry is on its way. You can kind of feel yourself unwind just a bit at that very moment. Every little bit helps. (Oh, that's an interesting point you raise when you speak of enhanced bile secretion when taking in bitter substances. Hadn't made that connection). Thanks again, Rich.   RM
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#23
(01-08-2018, 01:51 PM)Rafterman Wrote:  I hope that you do eventually pick up a conditioned response to the taste because its almost like it feels like the ALP is kicking in immediately.

I'm not a psych, but for me the conditioned response and the placebo effect are pretty much the same thing. 
Which means that the effect cannot be easily dismissed away as  'just imaginary' but rather the exact opposite - that they're real and measurable.
I betcha that even personal EEG devices (Neurosky / Emotiv) would be able to track the 'relaxation response' changes on the first taste of bitterness.
Probably even quality Heart Rate Variability software would do the same.
But to what end, I wonder?  Those kind of n=1 experiments are purely for fun and self-satisfaction Big Grin not for anyone else's sake. 
If your personal experience is that "its almost feels like the ALP is kicking in immediately", then that, as they say, is that.


It gets deliciously spooky when we start wondering how early these physical meds do actually 'start working'.
I reckon it would be before registering the bitter taste.
Probably even before the anticipation of the bitterness. 
Possibly even in  that second and a half before we become conscious that some part of ourselves has made the decision to take the med.
But uh-oh, yes, now we're wandering into spooky territory indeed.
Back in the real world, Big Grin , all I want is for the work day to be over, so that I can crush my first 1mg and get all bitter-taste-scrunchy-faced.

R.
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#24
Reporting back on trial #1.  SL @lpr@x 1mg
No-where near as nasty as I had imagined. Which could be due to (a) I was catastrophising how bitter it would be, or (b) Alpr@x doesn't actually contain much bitter-alp to begin with.   I'd tend to go with (a) as I've been happy with this brand over time.

To the test: I thought I felt something at 6 mins, then decided not; then again at about 20mins, and then decided not.
But at 45mins I definitely felt a rush of relaxation.
So I'm left wondering if I didn't crush down fine enough for SL - but that the vastly increased surface area of the powder hitting my stomach allowed for much faster absorption compared to the usual tablet. To this end tomorrow I will try for better SL by letting a tab dissolve very slowly under my tongue and aiming to swill not swallow.
It's also likely that my expectations are set far too high for a measly1mg dose.
I wont take more than 1mg during the working week - but am prepared to go higher on a Friday night or Saturday....
Enthusiasm for the cause is one thing, but there's part of me that knows that applying pressure - or trying to race - towards relaxation is invariably counterproductive.

I did some reading today. A 2013 paper titled 'Benzodiazepine Pharmacology and Central Nervous System–Mediated Effects' specifically mentions Loraz is well absorbed after SL, reaching peak levels in 60 minutes. Would be easy to visit any of our favored vendors to assist with product that could allow for a comparison between Lora and Alp.
Hahaha.   Like we don't have enough to do already.

RM, I am interested in your suggestions of where to go from here.
Thanks and Regards,
R
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#25
(01-09-2018, 11:11 AM)Richardg8092 Wrote: Reporting back on trial #1.  SL @lpr@x 1mg
No-where near as nasty as I had imagined. Which could be due to (a) I was catastrophising how bitter it would be, or (b) Alpr@x doesn't actually contain much bitter-alp to begin with.   I'd tend to go with (a) as I've been happy with this brand over time.

To the test: I thought I felt something at 6 mins, then decided not; then again at about 20mins, and then decided not.
But at 45mins I definitely felt a rush of relaxation.
So I'm left wondering if I didn't crush down fine enough for SL - but that the vastly increased surface area of the powder hitting my stomach allowed for much faster absorption compared to the usual tablet. To this end tomorrow I will try for better SL by letting a tab dissolve very slowly under my tongue and aiming to swill not swallow.
It's also likely that my expectations are set far too high for a measly1mg dose.
I wont take more than 1mg during the working week - but am prepared to go higher on a Friday night or Saturday....
Enthusiasm for the cause is one thing, but there's part of me that knows that applying pressure - or trying to race - towards relaxation is invariably counterproductive.

I did some reading today. A 2013 paper titled 'Benzodiazepine Pharmacology and Central Nervous System–Mediated Effects' specifically mentions Loraz is well absorbed after SL, reaching peak levels in 60 minutes. Would be easy to visit any of our favored vendors to assist with product that could allow for a comparison between Lora and Alp.
Hahaha.   Like we don't have enough to do already.

RM, I am interested in your suggestions of where to go from here.
Thanks and Regards,
R
Howdy Rich,
Man, your posts are great. If I weren't sick right now, I would make a longer response to each of them. I also always crush up my meds in order to provide more surface area for absorption. I have gotten lazy over the years and now do it with my front teeth, being careful not to lose any in the natural indentations of said teeth. That is if I plan to swallow. To go SL, I crush first at a remote location, as do you. I find that many brands of ALP have a thin shell around them. I never really understood why the manufacturer would do that because it actually discourages sublingual use. Many people would just like to a pop a tab under the tongue and be done with it. You know that the manufacturers realize there is some market for forms that would lend themselves to sublingual administration  because they used to put out Ativan in a thin breathsaver-like strip. So you would think the same manufacturer would omit the thin shell in their other benzo products.

Please let us know your results from tomorrow, as you let the tab dissolve slowly sublingually. Don't be afraid to let it linger there. I think, of course, that the level of impact will vary dependent upon a few different things... size of dose, tolerance level, bioavailability of ALP in the formulation that you were using, and how empty the person is when they getting the test. You have brought out all these points already. Just curious, but you like those Alprax? I have heard varying reviews.  Cheers, RM
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#26
I have always been too afraid of the taste to crush up my pills. I'm guessing it would make them have a quicker impact, but I just don't know how people do it. If I forget water and have to dry swallow a pill and it touches my tongue...ugh, haha. I might just be a wuss. Or maybe it's something you get used to. Any tips?
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#27
Sorry to hear that you are unwell, RM. Wishing you a rapid and complete recovery.

Letting it sit under my tongue last night was MUCH better - in terms of a very slow dissolve with pronounced bitterness.
But, tbh, I  took it half an hour before bed for the purpose of sleep - not for staying awake to observe the effects.
But I know what I'll be doing come this Friday.... Smile
As to the variables - I'm 14 days in at 1mg/day at this stage. My last series was a year  ago, so realistically, v. little tolerance, if any.
I can only compare these @lpr@x to two other brands I've had whilst holidaying in S.E.Asia - and they are better than those, for sure.
I'm considering P!n!x from a trusted vendor for the purpose of comparison - but, likewise, I've read mixed reports about them too.  
Unfortunately, getting Ks@lol's etc in my part of the world is virtually impossible. (Although that might change in about 30 posts from now Wink )
Off to work for me; rest & recovery for you!
R.
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#28
(01-10-2018, 10:29 PM)Richardg8092 Wrote: Sorry to hear that you are unwell, RM. Wishing you a rapid and complete recovery.

Letting it sit under my tongue last night was MUCH better - in terms of a very slow dissolve with pronounced bitterness.
But, tbh, I  took it half an hour before bed for the purpose of sleep - not for staying awake to observe the effects.
But I know what I'll be doing come this Friday.... Smile
As to the variables - I'm 14 days in at 1mg/day at this stage. My last series was a year  ago, so realistically, v. little tolerance, if any.
I can only compare these @lpr@x to two other brands I've had whilst holidaying in S.E.Asia - and they are better than those, for sure.
I'm considering P!n!x from a trusted vendor for the purpose of comparison - but, likewise, I've read mixed reports about them too.  
Unfortunately, getting Ks@lol's etc in my part of the world is virtually impossible. (Although that might change in about 30 posts from now Wink )
Off to work for me; rest & recovery for you!
R.
Thanks for the well wishes, Rich. I appreciate that. I have always wondered if there was a brand of generic ALP that had anywhere near the impact of a brand name. Many years back I had a Neurologist who was benzo-happy. He thought that I was high strung and decided that I desperately needed some. I had incredible health insurance and I used to pay nothing for a generic and $2 for most brand name meds. So, of course, I went for the brand name ALP (which happened to be Phiz-r). Purples footballs by script from a doctor who seemed hell-bent on me being on benzos.  I may have been on those for a little less than a year. I never habituated to them, but I got very spoiled. I thought that all future ALP would hit like they did. My wife gets her ALP from her psychiatrist (a psychiatric nurse practitioner) and has so far tried three different generics. I sampled each and found them to range from marginally to moderately effective, but nowhere near effective as my long-gone purple footies. That is why I asked what you thought about the Alrp-x. Have also wondered about the Pin_x. One of these days I am going to mosey on over to an IOP area and check some of this stuff out. I have yet to use that area, as I have posted almost exclusively to this area. In any event, I hope that you are having a fine day.  RM
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#29
(01-10-2018, 05:42 PM)Naomi Wrote: I have always been too afraid of the taste to crush up my pills. I'm guessing it would make them have a quicker impact, but I just don't know how people do it. If I forget water and have to dry swallow a pill and it touches my tongue...ugh, haha. I might just be a wuss. Or maybe it's something you get used to. Any tips?

one tip worth gold, taper off while you can, and find alternative.Since i get impression you might be still new to this so not to late to get out,most people who take em long term is not by choice but theres no other way to function without em, sad but true for many of us.

back onto topic while crushing between spoons or just inside mouth id say id does hold value that it might react faster but its low %, since coating is really thing if any on most popular benzos, and unless one is specifically oral,like drops or liquid with time release it would be hard to tell how much effect there is between just melting it under tongue or letting dissolve naturally,since everyone's body metabolizes at different speed also food,weight and many other factors that would affect effects.Interesting none the less.
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#30
(01-11-2018, 05:34 PM)cmdline Wrote:
(01-10-2018, 05:42 PM)Naomi Wrote: I have always been too afraid of the taste to crush up my pills. I'm guessing it would make them have a quicker impact, but I just don't know how people do it. If I forget water and have to dry swallow a pill and it touches my tongue...ugh, haha. I might just be a wuss. Or maybe it's something you get used to. Any tips?

one tip worth gold, taper off while you can, and find alternative.Since i get impression you might be still new to this so not to late to get out,most people who take em long term is not by choice but theres no other way to function without em, sad but true for many of us.

back onto topic while crushing between spoons or just inside mouth id say id does hold value that it might react faster but its low %, since coating is really thing if any on most popular benzos, and unless one is specifically oral,like drops or liquid with time release it would be hard to tell how much effect there is between just melting it under tongue or letting dissolve naturally,since everyone's body metabolizes at different speed also food,weight and many other factors that would affect effects.Interesting none the less.

Sadly, not new. 10 years or more into it.  All doctor rx. They just don't know what else to do because therapy/treatment hasn't helped with the panic attacks and they don't want me to black out while I'm driving, so they keep prescribing.  Thanks for the information! Hope you're well!
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