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+--- Thread: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? (/showthread.php?tid=1829)
How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - Back2Good - 04-02-2016
Note: This post is edited and adapted from a reply I made in the "Legal Issues" forum last week. Â I've seen several variants of this question asked this week (there are a lot of new members aboard, who are, as we all were when we first turned to an IOP, apprehensive about their first use of an IOP).
I. Now, this is entirely anecdotal (thus probably not reliable - You attorneys on the forum have no doubt heard the expression that "anecdotes do not equal data"), but I thought it might be worthy of sharing. I was a member of a very tight knit (and extremely private) forum, now long gone, during the mid to late 1990's, primarily a benzodiazepine support group where only tested and trusted vendors were listed and allowed to post. It was a highly volatile forum, with some nasty personalities and more than its fair share of pissing contests between members, but on the whole, the information provided there, and the vendor information available made it worth the hoops one had to jump through to obtain membership. In the waning days of the forum it was discovered that every single moderator (and the admin) were getting free medications from the vendors in return for allowing them to be listed on the site, and that several of the moderators were actually distributing medications themselves, often in the same forum, under a different username. Of course the reason the forum shut down overnight was that those moderators and the site administrator were selling enough medications to catch the eye of two state LE Bureaus of Investigation, who in turn contacted the dreaded three-letter federal enforcement agency. A combined state and federal task force was put together targeting these individuals for investigation, arrest, and eventually charging and convicting them of possession with intent to distribute - As I said, the community (especially the reasonable members who were only looking for support and ordering medications for personal use) was very tight, and we continued to correspond via email and even telephone (those were different days) after the forum shut down - It was weeks before information about those about those arrests and convictions started to trickle out from members who knew those charged personally, months in some cases, but within 6 months of the forum disappearing overnight, there was enough publicly available information to confirm that the convictions stuck for all those arrested.
II. The pertinent part to this thread, however, is this: Not one member of the forum, even those who ordered larger than "normal" amounts of medication was ever so much as contacted by state or local LE, even though the forum mods and admin had all of the information necessary to identify us, as many of them, it turned out, had been our primary vendors, and even overseas vendors were required to provide personal information about forum members who ordered through them. We all lived in terror for 12-18 months, of course, but even when newspapers in the cities or towns those convicted lived in published articles about the combined federal and state(s) LE "sting" operation it turned out was behind the arrests, none of us members received so much as a warning visit from local LE, not even a phone call. The moderators received fairly light sentences, but it came to light that the admin was receiving and distributing very large amounts of medications, from every Schedule, as well as street drugs and "raver" favorites of the time. He's sitting in a federal penitentiary to this day.
III. There have been numerous changes to federal (FDA) regulations concerning the use of IOPs since that time, and even new legal precedents set, some good cases and some bad ones , but one thing remains the same - We know that simple possession is a misdemeanor offense (one that sometimes does result in jail time, depending on the Schedule and amount of medication found in one's possession and some other really dumb practices people engage in, such as possessing unregistered firearms, possessing "street drugs" such as the devil's lettuce, and possessing drug abuse accessories), and possession with intent to distribute is a felony offense, with much longer sentences if a conviction is obtained. Most often state or local LE (working with postal inspectors) pursue these types of cases, as the dreaded 3-letter federal enforcement agency can't be bothered with a single person ordering medications for personal use, but there are several reasons (discussed below) as to why state and local LE are interested in these types of prosecutions.
IV. What we don't know, and probably never will, since the criteria change so often based on political campaign issues (even local campaigns for Sheriff or District Attorney often result in an increased LE focus on drug arrests and convictions, to show that the incumbent is "tough on crime"), federal, state, county, and city LE budget increases or cuts, policy changes at the federal level that result in changes to FDA regulations, and ebbs and flows in the crime rate statistics for a given state, county, or town, is what that "trigger" is that will result in one of your orders causing you far more grief than an LL. Is it a random Postal Inspector selecting your package based on his or her judgement and obtaining a warrant to open it, and finding Schedule I, II, or III medications in it? Is it a number of reports filed on you by forum members or, or friends of theirs with hacking skills who can identify you with nothing but your IP address, and have their friends file multiple reports due to a heated argument online (don't laugh, that's happened) due to your frequently insulting them in the forums? Is it a neighbor who has had one or more of your packages incorrectly delivered to their home filing a police report on you (this is stupid on their part, as it opens them up to charges of opening federal mail, which is the property of the USPS until it is delivered to the correct address, but has happened to at least one person I'm acquainted with - With both the person who opened the mail illegally and the intended recipient being charged)? Is it your mail carrier, who doesn't really like you because you live in a nice home, or because you block your mailbox with a parked car too often, or because you don't leave a Christmas card with $20 in it for them during the holiday season in your mailbox for them, while the other folks in your neighborhood or area generally do? Is it non-USPS delivery services, who require no warrant to open packages, handing over your package to local LE (UPS is the worst in that regard, they have a formal agreement with the feds to look for "suspicious packages" after they were hauled into Congress to testify about their delivery practices after a large SY sting a few years back)? Those, among many other factors I'm sure could be considered should be included in your risk evaluation before you decide to order medications online, even from domestic vendors.
V. It bothers me constantly, not knowing what that "trigger" might be, but wrongheaded though I might be, I think that CBP (including their Customs agents at USPS mail entry stations) tend to focus their efforts on Schedule I and Schedule II drugs and street drugs, and perhaps very large amounts of Schedule III and Schedule IV medications in a single package - And by "very" large amounts, I mean far more than 1000 pills. Average (let's call "average" 2000 pills or less - Many people order double that amount) orders are probably intercepted so frequently that their guidance is to simply send an LL for them, then destroy them when there's no reply to the LL - They have budget limits just as any federal agency does, and have to use their resources wisely in order to maintain their budget renewal from DHS, or hopefully get a budget increase. I tend to believe (again, pure conjecture) that as long as you are ordering Schedule III or Schedule IV medications in reasonable amounts, for personal use, your state or local LE agencies and the USPS Postal Inspectors don't know anything about you - Once you've received an LL, the matter ends with CBP, the package never enters USPS, and you've simply lost your medications, and have to decide whether to ask for a re-ship or place another order with a different vendor based on your own risk acceptance threshold. But there are the cases of bad luck or bad judgement I covered in paragraph IV above. They are rare, but they do happen - And the victim won't find out what brought the baleful eye of state or local LE upon them until they have an opportunity to review the charges with their attorney.
In conclusion, I don't think any of us can put our minds fully at ease when using IOPs, but I think many of us (especially those new to the process) worry far too much, far more than is necessary. If you are ordering for personal use, and limiting the medications you order to Schedules III and IV (even better if you have a prescription for those medications from a Doctor), then the (very) rare incidents of bad luck or use of bad judgement covered in paragraph IV are most likely the only things that will result in more than an LL. Everyone must decide for themselves what risk threshold they are comfortable with, but I hope this information helps, and I certainly invite any of our community's members of the bar to weigh in here as well.
Good luck, good health, and wisdom to everyone.
- b2g
RE: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - JohnKing - 04-03-2016
Good info!! Ty. I go by the 90 day theory: never order more than a 90 day supply of meds at a time or in a single parcel. It just makes me feel safer, and a 90 supply generally is not a huge amount.
RE: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - Charon - 04-03-2016
It is a myth about the personal usage law.
The Government confirmed this with a letter dated may 2001 to most forums that this was not true.
RE: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - Back2Good - 04-03-2016
Indeed, Charon - I only used "personal use" in the context that small orders are far and away the least likely to result in anything but an LL - They will simply be destroyed, for no other reason than budget and resource constraints. Nothing on the websites of the federal agencies responsible for enforcing interstate or international importation laws indicates that any drug importation or re importation is permitted under their guidelines; to wit:
Quote:The above guidance does not specify that a U.S. citizen may import an unapproved drug only with a prescription from a U.S. licensed physician, or that a foreign citizen may import an unapproved new drug only with a foreign prescription. Rather, to ensure that the importation is for personal use only (and not for resale), and to ensure that the use of the unapproved new drug sought to be imported into the U.S. is supervised and does not represent an unreasonable risk, the guidance provides that the individual affirm in writing that the drug is for his or her personal use, and provide either the name and address of the U.S. licensed physician who will supervise its use or some evidence that the treatment was begun in a foreign country/area and that the drugs are being imported to continue/conclude the already begun treatment. Thus, while not the only documentation, either a U.S. or foreign prescription, along with an affirmation of personal use, could be supplied as evidence that this factor exists.
The guidance also provides that the importation should generally not represent more than a 3 month supply of the unapproved products. The purpose for this provision is in keeping with the intent that the guidance relate to only drugs for personal use, not commercial distribution. As the document sets forth only guidance, the 3 month limitation is not a "requirement" or a "restriction." If an individual presents evidence that he or she requires more than a 3 month supply for the full treatment of his or her illness, and it appears that the reordering of a one or two month additional amount may be inappropriate, FDA may consider the release of the full amount. Similarly, if a foreign traveler to the U.S. seeks to import unapproved drugs during his or her stay in the U.S., the amount sought to be imported should represent the amount needed for personal use during the U.S. visit. Where the evidence appears to indicate that the drugs may be imported for commercial distribution, the guidance provides that FDA should refuse admission of such drugs.
It must be emphasized that the intent of the personal use importation guidance is to save FDA resources and to generally permit, through the exercise of enforcement discretion, medical treatments sought by individuals that are not otherwise available in the United States (where such treatments are not promoted/commercialized in the U.S.). Thus, foreign-made chemical versions of drugs available in the U.S. are not intended to be covered by the policy. For example, a person may decide that his or her FDA approved heart medication is cheaper in Mexico, and attempt to import the unapproved version of the drug from Mexico. FDA cannot assure that such products have been properly manufactured and are effective; therefore, given that such products are available in the U.S., their use would present an unreasonable risk and the guidance would not apply (unless the person seeking their importation could establish that the drugs were needed to refill a prescription while traveling or were otherwise needed while traveling).
Likewise, a drug such as Valium is available in the U.S. and, as such, a foreign-made version of the U.S. approved drug would not generally be considered a candidate to be permitted entry under the guidance. However, because the United States D** may have specific requirements that apply to the importation of controlled substances such as Valium, FDA's guidance on personal importations specifically provides that controlled substances should be returned to Customs for handling.
And D** is even more specific:
Quote:Federal law prohibits buying controlled substances such as narcotic pain relievers (e.g., OxyContin®, Vicodin®), sedatives (e.g., Valium®, Xanax®, Ambien®), stimulants (e.g., phentermine, phendimetrazine, Adderall®, Ritalin®) and anabolic steroids (e.g., Winstrol®, Equipoise®) without a valid prescription from your doctor. This means there must be a real doctor-patient relationship, which by most state laws requires a physical examination. Prescriptions written by "cyber doctors" relying on online questionnaires are not legitimate under the law.
Buying controlled substances online without a valid prescription may be punishable by imprisonment under Federal law. Often drugs ordered from rogue websites come from foreign countries. It is a felony to import drugs into the United States and ship to a non-D** registrant.
Buying drugs online may not be only illegal, but dangerous. The American Medical Association and state boards of medicine and pharmacy have all condemned the practice of cyber doctors issuing online prescriptions as unacceptable medical care. Drugs delivered by rogue websites may be the wrong drugs, adulterated or expired, the wrong dosage strength, or have no dosage directions or warnings.
D** is targeting rogue online pharmacies for prosecution and shutting down these illegal websites.
Budget and resource constraints are the reason LL's even exist - If these agencies had the money and personnel to prosecute every single order that was interdicted by Customs, they'd do so. Fortunately for us, they don't, and have to use their own discretionary guidelines as to when more action than an LL is warranted.
RE: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - Revolution - 04-03-2016
Back2Good, I'm being presumptuous here, but, for a man raising baby chicks, you sure are well versed in the law. Well done, my friend. (Mouth hanging open with awe).Â
RE: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - Back2Good - 04-03-2016
LOL, Revolution - I'm nowhere near versed, much less well versed in Constitutional law or any other area of law but this one - This one I follow keenly, even to the extent of case law and sentencing guidelines where they are available. I've always known I'm engaging in high risk behavior while using IOPs, and I'm a keen believer in the "be prepared" axiom, although I've never been a Boy Scout.
I would recommend everyone read as much as possible about the possible legal ramifications of importing or re-importing medications - You're the one who has to make the decision regarding whether to do so or not, and the risk matrix here is so grey and dim I don't trust anyone but myself to try to decipher it. Yes, that means my advice and anecdotes are of absolutely no use, as they are still non-primary sources...But hopefully they will encourage others (who, like myself, have neither the time, money, or inclination to consult an attorney) to read everything they can, from the primary sources, before making the decision to jump into the pond.
Have a great day!
- b2g
RE: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - JohnKing - 04-03-2016
Is it legal to import from canada or did the evil Bush put a stop to that? I remember when that was a big thing years back for seniors with crappy insurance.
RE: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - Back2Good - 04-03-2016
(04-03-2016, 05:24 PM)JohnKing Wrote: Is it legal to import from canada or did the evil Bush put a stop to that? I remember when that was a big thing years back for seniors with crappy insurance.
Ah, the old "Senior prescription buses" that used to run from New York to Canada, and from Texas to Mexico, I remember them well. Unfortunately, the laws have changed since the mid to late 90's - The guidelines I posted above are the most current, they are dated 1998, and they include not only international (i.e., Canada), but interstate importation of drugs. I guess you'll have to give Dubya a pass on this one
RE: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - JohnKing - 04-03-2016
Yup the ol bus trips. Odd thing is I live in a smaller town and a canadian rx has a quarter page ad for meds: viagra, lipitor, stuff like that. It says fax your script and they mail it. Idk how they do it. Its a small town with a huge right leaning paper so idk.
RE: How many pills is it "safe" to include in one order? - Bighead - 04-03-2016
In all honesty LE could knock on your door for illegally ordering one Viagra. However, the chances of that happening are slim to none. I know someone who ordered 600 of a benzo sent USPS overnight and the letter never made it. The tracking stopped after two scans. The sender was arrested a week later for intent to distribute, amongst many other charges (obviously a domestic vendor). The person ordering never heard a word from LE about the 600 pills addressed to them. Usually, once they catch the supplier they leave the end user alone (most of the time).
I've also read of where customs has opened packages, obviously saw the medications, and just used the customs colored taped and sent them on their way (probably customs agents that didn't feel like dealing with the paperwork or were close to getting off their shift, or just didn't care). I won't say my largest order, but it was way more than a 90 day supply (like Charon pointed out that is a myth; it's illegal to import any amount of medications without proper paperwork). It's more about what you feel comfortable ordering. Hypothetically, I may feel safe ordering 1000 at a time and jimbob 100. It just depends on how risk adverse you are, if you want to order larger amounts to order less, or if you prefer to order smaller amounts, but more often. Personally, I fall in the middle. My main vendor sends in 3-4 sizes. I usually use the middle size. cost is also a factor. If I order the smallest amount I pay (random numbers) 60 cents a piece. The next size up its 47 cents, then the next size it's 35 and the largest amount is 20 cents.
Also, keep in mind that schedule 1 orders if found will have a higher chance of LE being involved. I believe the same is true with schedule 2's. If you order 300 schedule 2's and they get confiscated you may get more than an LL, as opposed to getting 300 schedule 4 or non-schedule meds will probably result in just an LE. I could be wrong on this, but it's my thoughts on the topic from being involved in the world of IOP's for 5-6 years.